Do as I say, Not as I do

You will often see on facebook LDS apologist claiming that we as Christian apologist censor their comments for the sole purpose of trying to keep honest people such as yourselves from hearing the "Truth" about Mormonism.  I am going to show you the information listed on one of the LDS apologist facebook pages and see if they are above their own accusations.

"This Facebook page provides the Biblical foundation for many basic doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  It is for those who are new to the Church, those who have been members of the Church, those who are questioning their faith, and those who are seeking to understand the teachings and premise of the LDS Church."

Now I'm all for people wanting to clarify what their opinions are. If I were to run a page about my own faith I would expect those who may have questions to bring them.  Which brings up the issue of how they are dealt with.  This is what they are accusing us of  "censoring".  Now let's look into their "rules".

"By liking this page, you agree to the following rules (and it is up to you to read these rules): 

1) There are to be no personal attacks of individual members here on this page. This includes the General Authorities, or past Leaders of the Church.  If you are going to post comments that Joseph Smith was a pedophile then you are not welcomed on this page for that is an ad hominem."

Now I can completely agree with the first line. The second line however is a different issue for most of the issues with Mormonism come because of contradictions from past leaders.  It would be understandable that in an attempt to conceal reality from it's members the church would not want these things on their page.  And since a lot of those issues go all the way back to quotes from Joseph himself including lies about polygamy then him being a pedophile should be kept off as well.  Now let's look at the definition of ad hominem....

• appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
• attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

Now let's just keep this in mind as we continue.

2) Sincere questions are welcomed.  However, any question that are gauged to be deceptive forms of attacking the doctrines, leaders, and history of the LDS Church, the comment will be removed.  Upon the third removal, the individual will be banned from posting on the page indefinitely. 

Sincere questions? So in other words we can't ask anything that sheds reality on Mormonism....Got it. What I have an issue with is that in the same breath they will complain about how ministries like ours refuse to allow them to go off and litter our page with nonsense.   If they want to run their page according to these rules it wouldn't be an issue if they weren't complaining about us asking to do the very same.

3) Links to known counter-cult ministries (CARM, MRM, UTLM, et al.) will automatically be removed and the individual who posted said link.

Not this makes me laugh. For CARM, MRM, and especially UTLM have spent years getting scans of original documents to show what was said and in the context of which it was meant. So again I can see what they would want to censor these out from those who might be questioning their faith.  For the church doesn't want to lose any faithful tithers. 

4) There is to be no questioning the admins if your comment is moderated.  It is your responsibility to comply to these rules and to participate in the conversation with respect and the utmost integrity.

Right.  Because when truth is brought into light we wouldn't want any investigators to realize what Mormonism is spending countless hours and dollars trying to sweep under the rug.  I'm also all for giving respect where it's due.  Problem is respect is something that is earned and those who are constantly deceptive deserve no respect.

5) The appropriate concepts of netiquette will be employed here and enforced.  If you are unaware of what these concepts are, then it is your responsibility to read this link: http://www.albion.com/netiquette/corerules.html  

Now as far as this one is concerned I about fell out of my chair reading it knowing how many they break on a daily basis.  At this point I almost expected Emperor Palpatine to come and explain to us how the Jedi are being deceptive. 

6) If you are called to cite your sources, it is your responsibility to provide those sources.  The only sources that are acceptable are those sources that come from established academic Journals, commentaries, and respected publications.  Wikipedia is not considered a respectable source to cite.

So remember rule #3?  If they call us on siting our sources how can we if they're just going to remove them?  I think that if they are going to want and post links to FAIR and FARMS we should be allow to counter those with our highly accredited sources. 

7) Whether you are commenting or publishing a note for discussion on this page, you bear the burden and responsibility to provide a "Works Cited" section.  This means that you have to comply with the standard of rulses of MLA, Chicago, Turban, or APA.  It is imperative that links are provided in the text/commentary so that the information can be verified. 

I'm all for making things nice and neat.  Seems a little much to ask of everyone for a facebook page but ok. And again... How can we give links if they are just going to be removed. 

These rules will be amended as necessary and at the discretion of the page admins.

So another words if someone does something you don't like that isn't in this ridiculous set of rules you can change it so you can get rid of them anyway.... Got it.



Now their mission statement makes things all the better.  "To provide basic understanding to the honest seeker of truth as to the Biblical foundation for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint faith." I think we can all see that to them only those who have already made up their mind that Mormonism is what it is without questioning are "honest" seekers.  And "Biblical" foundation?  There was no Mormonism prior to the Book of Mormon and even then the Bible is second to the Book of Mormon so there can by no means be a Biblical foundation. 


And the best for last is what they list for their products.  

- The Book of Mormon  (We've all known this to be a product, just didn't know it was a product of LDS apologists)
- DVD's
- Pamphlets
- Articles
- Magazines
- Books

Now if these products belong to them then that must mean they "Officially" speak for the church and can't use that as an excuse when we ask the hard questions.  So with that I ask you be extremely careful when surfing around facebook.  They will love to get unsuspecting people in there to make them believe as they do without question. 

I needed a good laugh

I came across an LDS apologists blog a while back and they were trying to merge so called "Anti-Mormons" as hate groups as listed by the FBI's definitions.  Then let's look at each of these shall we.  And we can see who really fits this "Mold".

1.      Group gathers

2.      Group defines itself

3.      Group disparages the target

4.      Taunts target

5.      Attacks target without weapons

6.      Attacks target with weapons

7.      Destroys target


1.  Group gathers - Well this is kind of generic and can be applied to almost anyone from a group of co-workers gathering to play softball or your local Sunday service.


2. Group defines itself - Well if they are trying to refer to us then we define ourselves as a group of Evangelical Christians out to share the "Real" gospel of Jesus with the LDS and JW's.  However they define themselves as a group of people out to defend the "Supposed" restored gospel.  So again this really doesn't mean much quite yet.


3. Group disparages the target - Well let's start with the definition of disparages shall we.

• to speak of or treat slightingly; depreciate; belittle
• to bring reproach or discredit upon; lower the estimation of

Now let's look at some comments made by LDS apologists shall we?

Peter Anderson Makinson Bob Brett needs to keep his toys in his pushchari and play with his toys instead of trying to play with the BIG BOYS ......

Peter Anderson Makinson - The Challenging Mormon Apologetics are a complete joke. Up to now I know of 7 people who have been banned 8 with me. Who are this bunch of crackpots ans what are they trying to achieve...

Timothy Berman “Some look at the kid with a big stick heading towards a Beehive and think “that boy has got to be the biggest fool” when in reality it sometimes takes courage and kahonas to walk up to a nest of swarming bees and beat their cozy little nest to awaken the reality that the are not welcomed where they decided to hang out. ~~~ Timothy

So as you can see they may just need to remove the plank from their eye before worrying about the speck in their neighbors.

4. Taunts Target - Well taunting would imply what?  Asking for proof when we know they don't have any?  O.K.    How about comments like these...

Timothy Berman - Now, I challenge J.R. to republish his post, apologize for his insinuation, and to present the facts more plainly and simply.  

Apologize for sharing the truth about Mormonism?.... HA!!!


5.  Attacks target without weapons - This has got to be the most overused "cry foul" tactic you will see when it comes to LDS apologetics. For anytime something sheds light on their religion they claim we are attacking them.  Maybe they should start trying to practice their faith in countries such as China or North Korea and REALLY start to see and feel what being attacked is like.

6.  Attacks with weapons - OK.  Really?  Does this even need to be addressed.  The closest thing I've seen to them accusing critics of the church of this is in Greg West's blog where he tries to insinuate that every LDS church that is being burned down is being done so by "Anti-Mormons".  Really?  At what point do we need to get a reality check?

7.  Destroys target - As if #6 was pointless enough to address.  Come on,  just because someone is critical of another persons beliefs doesn't mean they are out do destroy them.  This is a tactic used by those who want to make things seem worse then they are in order to get sympathy from those they are trying to persuade.

So who really fits this mold.  Let me show you something and you can be the judge.  Funny how they like to cry foul and yet are guilty of the very same things they are accusing others of.  This is only the start of it. Their constant need to silence the critics has gotten out of hand.  I suggest they realize that just like there are Republicans and Democrats that not everyone will agree.  However if they are going to accuse people of things in order to try and make them look bad they had better watch what they are doing themselves.

Let this be a warning to all Bible believing Christians.  This game of theirs has no end.  Let's pray they wise up to their actions before they cause themselves anymore damage.

For discussion go to our forum.

The Prophecies of Joseph Smith

Always recommended video by James Walker.

For discussion please go to our forum. 

Misunderstanding the Kingdom of God

Excellent video on Jehovah's Witnesses worth watching.

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Ephesians 2 Forum

Truth vs. Wisdom

"If you lack knowledge, go to school.  If you lack wisdom, get on your knees! Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is the proper use of knowledge." ~Vance Havner

If you've ever met with Mormon missionaries or even talked with a Mormon I'm sure that you've been told that you just need to pray to know if the Book of Mormon is true.  An argument you will often see is them using James 1:5-7 which states...

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering.  For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord."

I have always stated that there is a big difference between truth and wisdom. So in order to better understand what James was getting at let's look at those definitions. Then we can go back and see if it clears things up a bit.

Truth: 

1. A fact that has been verified.
2. Conformity to reality or actuality.

Wisdom

1. Accumulated knowledge or erudition or enlightenment.
2. The trait of utilizing knowledge and experience with common sense and insight.

An example I like to use is the burner on your stove.  It is either on or off (True or False). Wisdom is being smart enough not to touch it if it's on.  So how can we apply this to the passage in James and especially praying over the Book of Mormon?  James says to pray for wisdom and I completely agree.  However when you hear "You just need to pray to see if the Book of Mormon is true" there is an instant issue.  Can the Book of Mormon be verified?  The answer is a resounding "NO!"  Is it reality or actuality?  Since there is no record of anything prior to Joseph's publishing in 1830 that is also a "NO".

When this point is going nowhere they will often turn to "The Spirit told me the Book of Mormon is true, and that is good enough for me."  Well there is a problem in that for the heart can't be trusted can it?

Jeremiah 17:9  

"The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?"

So if the heart can't be trusted, what can we trust to test if something is truth or not? Very simple.

Romans 12:2-3
"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your MIND.  Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-his good, pleasing and perfect will."

So I think we can start to see a pattern here.  Romans is telling us to renew our MIND and wisdom is utilizing knowledge.  Now when we go back and look at the definitions listed above we can clearly see how this is not a standard for truth.  So asking for wisdom is to ask how to best use the knowledge "truth" we have already been given and the only way to know that truth is to compare all things through the lens of the Bible.  This example is made clear in Acts 17:11 when we read...

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

Notice they didn't pray about it.  Instead they went to the written Word.  Jesus also used the written word to test truth.  We read this in Mathew chapter 4.

I pray this helps those who read this understand how Mormonisms methods for truth are not of God.  Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. May God bless you and keep you safe.